Ужос "Прапалитику"

[shvarz]

От жены мне за это влетит по первое число, но по мотивам моего предыдущего поста я ввязался в спор с arbat. Я о его (арбата) существовании раньше слышал и даже, кажется, читал какие-то споры с его участием, но о его политических воззрениях точно ничего не знал. Поэтому сначала находился в некотором недоумении и не мог понять, о чем он говорит. Но в конце концов разобрался. И теперь нахожусь в некотором недоумении о том, почему к нему в ЖЖ так серьезно относятся и считают глубоким и интересным человеком? Его подход к жизни - подход тинейджера, начитавшегося "философских книжек": "Все очень просто, у меня на все вопросы готов ответ исходя из моей философской схемы в четыре пункта длиной." Это же детский сад...

О, он мне даже отдельный пост посвятил: http://arbat.livejournal.com/499423.html (есть чем гордиться?)

Comments

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

не. нельзя. надо увы терпеть и не говорить пардон дебилам - не рожайте, плиззззз!! а то будет кошмар. он уже был, в общем.

честный либертарий фрисом-оф-сиз именно этого кошмара хочет, но другим путем - он например не дал бы гос-денег на лечение больных детей. болезни которые он "не согласен" лечить он ( не страдая от медицинского образования) - определил сам.

(((((

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

Maybe some of these "debils" can be reasoned with?

> честный либертарий фрисом-оф-сиз именно этого кошмара хочет, но другим путем - он например не дал бы гос-денег на лечение больных детей. болезни которые он "не согласен" лечить он ( не страдая от медицинского образования) - определил сам.

I wouldn't support this - I pity poor tykes. :|

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Коган-варвар

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

может и можно сказать "дебилу", но если знаете он/она уже беременные - как обычно и есть - то не скажешь ничего.

слово "дебил" тут вообще неправильное. пардон за него. чаще другое - безответственные и несчастные люди. кокаинистка например - знаете ЧТО они рожают???? их не жаль? мне - ОЧЕНЬ. они кокаин принимали не желая.

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

This is extremely controversial and "slippery slope" issue. One can argue that providing public care and support for such offsprings encourages the behavior. By cutting that support society might be able to reduce the number of endulging in it. It is like a surgeon in early ages - no painkillers but the leg needs to be amputated to avoid spreading the gangrena. Some can do it, some would rather let the patient die than subject her to such torture.

Who are you? Surgeon? Or the other guy?

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Коган-варвар

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

это все демагогия увы, пардон.

реально решать кого "поддерживать" а кого нет, и делать критерии - это уже.. скатиться.

тут америка - мы поддерживаем всех. приведет это нас к полному развалу - не знаю. посмотрим.

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

That's an easy non-answer. I would expect more elaborated rebuke from you, dear lady.

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Коган-варвар

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

это как вы правильно сказали сложный вопрос но увы с простым ответом ((

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

аналогии с хирургами, полицейскими, войнами и прочее - по сути демагогические. для щтих медицинских проблем аналогий просто нет. особенно если они для кого-то ежедневные - тогда аналогиии даже злят..

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

There are no simple answers for the complex questions. You could answer that ou're too squemish to pick up the hacksaw and I would accept it, since I'm pretty squemish myself, but calling it "demagoguery"... This is intellectual dishonesty.

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Коган-варвар

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

ну назовите чем угодно другим, хоспади. но на таких условиях я не обсуждаю эту проблему.

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

Sad. But that's ok. I'll get you somewhere else. :)

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Коган-варвар

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

да не, вряд ли. это профессиональное, и обсуждается с профессионалами и в профессиональных терминах - и точно без аллегорий.

медицинская этика - не для ЖЖ дело. тут будем груши околачивать и Обаму ругать.

Re: I myself am fairly hypocritical in that matter.

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't see where medical ethic has any part in our conversation. I'm not trying to discuss the behavior facing a type of future mother that you so colorfully described. I'm sure you know what to do, professionally and in the professional terms. I wanted to talk about the public policy toward that strata of our society. And in there, analogy of a medieval surgeon (or not even medieval, a surgeon from early 19th century) seems fairly acceptable to me. Why would it be a demagoguery?

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Коган-варвар

there is something you don't understand about this matter

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

and itmay sound very insulting to you.. i apologize in advance. okay?

this is not a matter of public policy. ( i mean cocaine-sniffing mothers and what is to be done).

this is a matter of medical ethics and individual decision. YOU have zero right to go near this or to make allegories/amnalogies and so forth and expect to be taken seriously. Sorry - you have a right to discuss, but not to be taken seriously by teh people who actially will make the decisions - and that will be the patient and the ir family, with the doctors - OR, if needed, the Court, or, if neede, teh Ethics Committee then the Court.

WE will discuss it all without your input, unless you make yourself into a Hospital Ethics Committee, or become an expert on medical ethics or a judge....- otherwise "you are out", meaning, delegated to LJ. the same is true about me and my Obamakare advice - Obama somehow ignores me. wonder why???


sorry if this sounds condescending, it was not meant to be. what i meant to reinforce - "the puvblic" and "public policy" should be consistently excluded from medical and individual decisions. as it is now with some notable exceptions - which only confirm the rule.

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

Слив засчитан.

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Коган-варвар

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

этого выражения я не понимаю..

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

That means you ascended to the higher dimension. :)

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Коган-варвар

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

oops, no, that's why i apologized. it SOUNDS this way, but it is not. it really is a PRIVATE business, this bad stuff. not for you to weigh in on.

i think you are right - i AM to the right of you. :-))) and maybe to the right of Arbat, too.

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

Doctor, you probably misunderstood me. I'm not trying to stick my nose in the personal matters of the cocaine-snifing girl, her parents, her unborn child or her doctor. I'm trying to understand if there are any ways to reduce the number of such girls by some sort of public policy changes. One of such policy cahnges would be reducing public help to such girls (medical, childcare, foodstamps, etc.). And this I compare to a surgeon amputating someone's leg without anaesthesia. I don't understand what caused such an outburst from you. Perhaps, I just haven't expressed myself clearly enough. I beg you pardon for that.

As for the argument that Obama hasn't asked you when prepared his botched Obamacare, well, too bad for Obama.

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Коган-варвар

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

oh, i misunderstood you. i thought you were gonna suggest sterilizing them.

reducing public help to a society member you deem "unworthy" is a tricky issue. it is very anti-american and there would be swarms of pro bono lawyers even if you PREDICATED her foodstamps on her showing responsible behavior. that would be paternalistic (of the state), interfering with her freedom (to snort cocaine), and unacceptable even to me.

so - we are doomed. all we can do is try to educate the girl early on, and to give her options for vocational training and otehr education, instill in her pride and self-respect and respect for otehrs, incluuding her fetuses. How likely is that????

not very.

so - we are doomed.

but we better be doomed than dabble in eugenics and decide whose life is better and worhtier.

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

> try to educate the girl early on, and to give her options for vocational training and otehr education, instill in her pride and self-respect and respect for otehrs, incluuding her fetuses

Doctor, you're certainly way to the right of anyone presented here. This is a pure heresy from the "progressive" perspective. Applause and respect from all the right-wing community. I'll be quoting these words of you left and right, may I?

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Коган-варвар

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

be my guest ;-) but i think you do not give "progressives" credit. many whom i know think exactly alike on this issue. for example, in my kids' middle school there was a "progressive" but not mandatory peer education group called G.R.A.P.E. - it did musical theater, skits and comedy on the subject of harrassment, hazing, use of alcohol and drugs, irresponsible sexual behavior including early sex, and they even touched upon rape, and of course on tolerance towards people who are different - in color or language or disability, and the unacceptability of any hostile expression towards such people.

the kids wrote the skits and songs and dances themselves. they [erformed at their schoola nd at local schools in the area.

i don't know all the "outcomes" of the whole school, but the participants in GRAPE were teh stars in highschool, the best, the cleanest kids ever, involved in civics or community service on tehir own (not forced, for college creds)and all went to the best colleges. actually mostly the ivies.

so, "progressives" do the same. education. repetition. learning.

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[old-sam.livejournal.com]

But I would not be myself if I don't bite you a bit with your own words.

> i thought you were gonna suggest sterilizing them.

I swear this never crossed my mind, at least not in today's discussion. But, apparently, it crossed yours...

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Коган-варвар

Re: there is something you don't understand about this matter

[tandem-bike.livejournal.com]

no.. been there done that (50s) sterilizing is OUT, but discouraging say 2 people with chromosomal disorders from copulating without protection - makes sense though is politically very difficult.